Unknown time piece-unknown maker-custom art
15 November 2021
Description

Diamond and gold art work on the front in the shape of a snake. Definitely old. Movement is from an unknown maker. Trying to identify if its custom made by a known artist or known watch maker. It came with an old black and white photo.

Provenance

Won it on estate sales bid

Acquired from
Auction House
For sale
Yes
Answered within 1 day
By David
Nov 16, 19:25 UTC
Fair Market Value
$800 - $1,200 USD
Suggested Asking Price $700 USD
What does this mean?

Hello Marc,
Thank you for sending in your estate purchased pocket watch to mearto.com for a fair market appraisal.
TITLE:
Gold with diamonds and enameled, pendant wound and pin set, open face pocket watch with snake outlined in white in clear gemstones, unsigned on dial and movement, movement made in Switzerland, circa 1910-1915.
PROVENANCE:
“Won it on estate sales bid” from client who describes it as a “Diamond and gold art work on the front in the shape of a snake.”
DESCRIPTION:
Case: Size not provided. Of not immediately in looking at this watch is the pendant and bow with an elongated gilt stem (shaped a bit like a telescope) terminating in a flat flute winding crown and round gilt bow. This is the shape of stem, pendant and bow taken from the era of the 1820-1830’s in its style and shape except it would not have had a fluted coin shaped winding pendant because in that era only key wound watches were made. Therefore, based on factors to come later in the write up this stem, pendant and bow were either reproduced or taken from an older watch. {This information is clearly shown in Philip Priestley’s booklet about watch case makers in his figure 31, watch bow styles through the centuries.} Therefore, that immediately alerts me to be aware of a faux object or rather one that is created for the “artistic appearance” of the watch case dial and movement. The back cover is said to gold and is of that color. The cover is engine turned or repousse having a textured surface and this is seen shortly after the middle of the 19th century. Onto this surface there are green enameled engraved vines with round red enameled flowers of red gemstones (I cannot be sure from the photo sent). Amongst the foliage is a well-executed coiled snake moving through the foliage and made up of roughly three dozen white clear gemstones which the client states are diamonds. I am going to label them diamonds of unknown quality, clarity and color since there is no gemological report accompanying this appraisal. The same could be said of the gilt bezel surrounding the dial which appears to have a few enameled green leaves and two similar clear gemstones. They could just as easily be rhinestones as diamonds without a proper gemologist report. The hinged cover sits opposite the pendant and bow. The inside of the cuvette is shown and carries case number 15647 and what appears to be an English duty mark but is not clear enough to be certain. (Some countries stamped a duty mark into the case to show that a tax was paid by the exporter.) Of greater importance there is no evidence of a gold hallmark on either the inside of the back cover, nor the cuvette of movement cover. Almost all of the European countries and the United States required proper hallmarks for gold and high-level silver watch cases by government laws dating back centuries. In addition, looking at the case surrounding the movement, just to the right of the hinge there are black marks of oxidation. That suggests that the case is gold plated, gold filled or rolled gold and not solid gold which does not oxidize by turning black.
Dial: a round white enameled dial with Arabic Breguet type blue hours, open elevated gilt dotted minute track, steel rococo Louis XVth style hands, not gilded at this time (it may have worn off the steel hands). Such dials are seen in those made on the Continent (mostly Switzerland) for export and made mostly between 1890 and 1920. The dial is unsigned.
Movement: This particular layout (design of the bridges) is particular to Switzerland with a straight barrel wheel bridge exposing some of the driving ratchet wheel gear, small shaped plate just beneath the pedant stem with no jewels. A brass curved center wheel bridge with a single jewel on the back plate of the movement and is not signed. Adjacent is a parallel short finger bridge with a single jewel (where you see a jewel on the back plate there an opposing jewel on the front plate, so I can say there are at least four jewels in this movement. There is a broad monometallic balance wheel (does not adjust for changes in temperature like a bimetallic balance wheel, found in better watch movements.) the index regulator which can be adjusted for running faster and slower is of definite Swiss origin. This type of movement arrangement was seen approximately between 1890 and 1920. {I would thing that a case that was so highly jeweled with diamonds would be accompanied by a more upscale movement. However, the movement and the dial are made at the same time, both are of Swiss origin.
CONDITION:
Case – The back cover appears to be in very good condition with some wear to the paint or enameled of the leaves. The interior covers are in good condition except for lack of gold markings. The telescopic pendant is from an earlier era and likely another older watch. The crystal has a compound fracture.
Dial – Appears to be very good with no hairline fractures seen and only a loss of the gilding on the hands and unsigned.
Movement – Complete, genuine, original and of Swiss origin, first quarter of the 20th century. Low jeweled commonly found Swiss movement.
Is it custom made? In the sense that the enameling and the jeweled snake on the back case cover, I suppose you could say it was custom made, but not when the watch was initially made. Someone, perhaps the same watchmaker added an early 19th century pendant, converted it to pendant winding instead of being made, as it originally was, for key wound movements. The “artist” is unknown.
COMPARABLES WITH SOLID 14 OR 18k GOLD AND GENUINE DIAMOND POCKET WATCHES:
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/106863427_189th-c-vauchez-paris-verge-fusee-pocket-watch (Signed Parisian solid gold and enameled key wound pocket watch sold in 2021 for $2000)
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/108313960_18k-diamond-and-enamel-alfred-girard-pocket-watch (signed gold and enameled pendant wound pocket watch sold in 2021 for $2100)
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/97181290_important-omega-18k-gold-and-diamond-pocket-watch (Omega solid gold and enameled with diamonds pocket watch, stem wound, sold for $1600 in 2021)
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/72207189_diamond-and-enameled-yellow-gold-pocket-watch (Enameled 18k gold with diamonds key wound pocket watch c. 1850 sold for $300 in 2019)
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/53427335_antique-enameled-yellow-gold-and-diamond-pocket-watch (14k gold and large diamond arrangement with enameled case, pendant wound and unsigned sold in 2017 for $550)
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/56762262_humbert-18k-enameled-gold-pocket-watch-with-diamond (signed on movement and dial, 18k gold pocket watch with diamonds sold for $2800)
PRICING:
Since you have not answered any of my questions, I have decided to go it alone without important information and make the appraisal “CONDITIONAL” on providing solid proof of the SOLID gold case and the QUALITY of the gemstones. If this is a solid gold case with good quality diamonds forming a snake in the woods arrangement, despite the bad pendant, the watch would have a fair market value on the watch market of $800-$1200 and that is what I am assigning to the appraisal but only conditionally until you prove the gold quality of the case with a jewelers note that he tested the case for solid gold, plus a gemology report telling me that the diamonds are genuine and not rhinestones and the diamond quality is at least of a retail level of gemstone. If this is a gold filled, gold plated or rolled gold case with enameling and rhinestones, the value would be $50-$100, even with a bad pendant, simply because of the pleasing aesthetics.
I have appraised your watch but made it a “CONDITIONAL APPRAISAL”, as described just above.
Thank you for choosing mearto.com for your appraisal.
My best
David

This is a conditional appraisal, which means that we have not verified the authenticity of this item. Click here to learn more about the authentication resources that Mearto offers.
David Nov 17, 00:53 UTC

Marc,
Please confirm that you saw my email from earlier today.
David

David Nov 17, 00:56 UTC

Marc,
I also noted you did not show me a photo of the outside of the back cover. Could you please send that to me as well
David

David Nov 17, 00:57 UTC

Sorry, I see the back cover now.
sorry
David

Marc mcateer Nov 19, 17:48 UTC

I just got back from the jewelry store and they confirm that they are real diamonds. They didn't want to test the gold though because they would have created an abrasion and conducted an acid test. When there, we discovered the stamps in the picture provided. Appears to say LVANCE RETARD. The E at the end of Vance is shaped as shown on the pink slip. Please let me know if you have further questions.

Marc mcateer Nov 19, 17:52 UTC

Ok i feel dum, it seems it might be referring to Advance and retard as in, speed up and slow down.

Marc mcateer Nov 19, 18:27 UTC

I just took some time and looked through my strongest loop. Found some stamps, don't know what they mean.

Marc mcateer Nov 19, 18:37 UTC

I'm doing digging, the hands match almost exactly these Longines hands. https://jptimepieces.com/product/22342/

David Nov 19, 19:01 UTC

Hi Marc,
You are correct it says Avance and Retard for faster and slower. Yes, they are very similar to the hands you show me on the Longines, but either the gilding wore off the steel hands or they were just steel without the gilding originally. There is nothing wrong with the hands on the watch. They are replicas of those made during the mid-18th century reign of Louis XVth. I am glad to hear that these are real diamonds, but we do not know the quality, some diamonds are very inexpensive and cn rate poorly. As far as the case without testing one cannot tell if it gold or not. The marking inside the case is a Duty mark. Without gold hallmarks or a positive test for either 14 or 18k gold one cannot be sure of the quality of the gold case. (I am trying to protect the buyer of this watch as well as being honest and thorough with you as the seller.) The pricing for the watch is correct as posted by me, but I think you need to use a gemologist to fully examine the watch. I cannot take off the conditional report until I have written proof that the case is solid gold and the gemstones are diamonds at least of decent quality.
I wish there was an easier way to do this but there is not. The Longines you showed me is a beautiful watch, signed by a major maker and in its original jewels box and is a RETAIL value not a fair market value. Retail values, at a minimum, would be twice to two and half times the fair market value, so I think I am pretty close on where I priced your watch.
You can try to obtain a gemological report from a fine upper end jeweler, usually found in a major city. SEE:
https://4cs.gia.edu/en-us/how-to-get-gia-report/#:~:text=The%20most%20convenient%20way%20to,and%20to%20explain%20its%20contents.
To remove the conditional report I need to see written evidence from a fine jeweler. Many have no fear of testing the gold since they can test a spot that is totally inconspicuous. I wish I could help you out more easily, but I cannot sign off on a gold case and gemstones that I an uncertain of.
Wishing you a Happy Thanksgiving,
David

Marc mcateer Nov 19, 20:10 UTC

Absolutely! Understood, I'll keep working that then.

David Nov 19, 21:20 UTC

Thank you for your understanding.
my best,
David

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