English long case grandfather clock

Nov 10, 2019. 01:35 UTC
English Long Case Grandfather clock
United States of America


Acquired from

For sale

My grandparents had an English Long Case Grandfather clock they bought in the 1930's that is now in our house. I am planning on having it serviced, but before I do that, I had the service company remove the dial so that I could try and search for the manufacturer. From what I have found, it looks like an Elliott from England; however, there are no other markings except for what is on the plate behind the dial, which is an engraved stamp of Queen Victoria sideview of her face as the trademark with the number 510 next to it. There is nothing else on the clock, anywhere. Do you know anything about the Queen Victoria Insignia on the clock? I have spoken to five grandfather clock service companies and not one has ever seen this trademark before. I need to know about it and why it is so rare along with an appraisal. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


English and owned by my grandparents who were born in the US around 1915.

Answered within 3 days
Nov 12, 22:36 UTC
By David

Fair Market Value

$2,000 - $2,500 USD

Insurance Value

$4,500 USD
What does this mean?

Hello Andrew,
Thank you for sending in this interesting Hall clock to mearto.com for an appraisal. I shall try to help you with that today, and I am fully aware that you desire the true facts as best as we can view them today and looking back about a century in time.
Neo-Classical, carved mahogany, triple weight driven, 8-day duration, striking and quarterly chiming, Hall clock with seven tubular bells, Unsigned by the clockmaker, using an imported German movement {attributed to Matthew Bauerle}, case made by the Herschede Clock Company of Cincinnati (Pattern No. 99) and retailed (retailer is thought to be the firm of Bawo and Dotter) in New York City, circa 1904-1910.
The client’s grandparents had this English Long Case Grandfather clock they bought in the 1930's.
CASE – Approximately 8 feet in height. It was originally 8 foot 4.5 inches, and it is currently missing it animal paw feet. However, this is a well-carved mahogany Hall clock made in an architectural style. It is the Herschede clock case pattern no.99 which first appeared in their catalog of 1904. (Hall clock is the name given in the late Victorian era, c. 1880s, to the floor standing weight driven grandfather, longcase or tallcase clock.) The hood has a Greek type dentil molded portico pediment (think Parthenon) with an open base. There is applied carved mahogany serpentine ornamentation within the enclosed tympanum with a large carved crown at the center. Flat pilasters support the portico corners on both sides with an arched cornice between them placed just above the arched glazed dial door. The dial door is flanked by a pair of free standing fluted mahogany Ionic colonnettes resting on architectural plinths below. The sides of the hood have recessed oval glazed side-lights. A stepped cornice then transitions down to the trunk section with its full-length rectilinear door with glazed oval at the center. The door is ornamented with an egg-and-dart concentric molding. The front corners of the trunk have free standing fluted Ionic columns while the sides of the trunk are decorated with panels that resemble the trunk door. Below the trunk door there is an architectural base with the sides of the case thrust forward and the center panel recessed with a concentric molding applied. The width of the decorated base molding is 28” ornamented with foliate and floral carvings. Just below the base sits flat to the floor. . .
DIAL - Single arched brass dial plate with elevated Arabic hour numerals in circular cartouche form, closed minute track to the outside, brass foliate filigree decoration in the corner spandrels in bas relief and the same design continuing into the dial center, steel fenestrated Chippendale-style hands, subsidiary seconds dial under the twelve and three winding apertures for the weights. There is no plaque for the manufacturer nor the retailer, and the dial is unsigned. There are two subsidiary dials in the upper spandrels, one for Westminster and Whittington chimes on the right and a chime/silent ring on the left. The lunette contains a revolving moon dial with a lunar calendar month of 29 ½ days just above. (The facial expression in the moon is unlike any painted English man-in-the-moon that I have ever seen, and that makes me suspicious that this is not an English painted moon dial and certainly not an Elliott moon.) Just below there are two engravings of the Northern hemisphere, ‘East’ and ‘West’. Between these two maps sits an ornament, best described as a ‘Fleur-de-Lys with curled leaves. (The design used by the J.J. Elliott Clock firm is a five-petal rosette. **N.B. The Herschede Clock Company used a crown, but not seen on this dial. Even though I am certain that Herschede made this case it is apparent that they sold it to the retailer, most likely Bawo & Dotter for sale in New York City. The New Haven Clock Company used a five-pointed star and Waltham used a fancy ‘W’) Look at this J.J. Elliott dial to see the rosette they used:
I have seen the design on this dial before and I believe it indicates the maker of the dial and therefore the movement would be Mathias Bauerle, long time clockmaker of St. Georgen, in the Black Forest region of southern Germany. (See Historical notes) . . .
MOVEMENT: This is a rectangular large brass plate movement with a textured surface on the brass. The two plates are connected by four tubular pillars which are screwed into place with brass collets and steel modern round headed screws. This holds the two plates together. There is an anchor escapement, fly wheel with rack and snail striking system, all powered by the descent of three brass canister weights which power the clock for eight days, with striking on the hour and half hour (this striking is on the eighth, the longest tubular bell) and chiming quarterly on the other seven tubes. The clock has a long second’s pendulum with round brass bob. The eight silvered brass tubes are unsigned and are therefore not made by J.J. Harrington the famous maker of tubular bells in London, England. (The clock is called a seven-tube chiming Hall clock even though it has the eighth tube because only the tubes that chime quarterly are counted.) There is the number 510 on the front plate, perhaps a model number or 510 mm perhaps being the size of the movement. Of greater interest is the stamped mark of the profile of a queen marked ‘Victoria Trademark’. This is a nefarious trademark, one that is unlisted in the various books on logos and trademarks that I use every day doing my work. The 1904 English Law of Royal Trademarks was passed to prevent the copying or creation of such fake marks. The presence of this mark indicates to me that the maker of the movement sought to create the impression that this was an English movement. (The Germans working in the first quarter of the 20th century rarely signed their clocks, neither on dials nor movements, primarily because they wanted the public in England and the Americas to think they were buying either English or American products. The German clockmakers could, in fact, make a finer horological product at a significantly lower cost than either the Americans or the English during these early years of the new century. They were only stopped by WW I and they never truly recovered their market share after the Great War.)
Therefore, this is why clock repairmen have never seen this mark (neither have I), but I am certain that its intent was purely to deceive the buyer in the same way that the little Fleur-de-Lys decoration on the dial makes this resemble an Elliot made London clock, and the carved crown in the tympanum makes one think of English royalty. This trademark was illegal when it was created but it was used anyway because it was not going to England but to America . . .
CASE -The case is of very fine construction and quality. It shows the expected amount of wear and a fine old patina to the finish. The case appears to be missing its animal paw feet. It had a pair of feet on both corners of the base. It remains a very handsome and prototypical example of the Victorian Hall clock made by craftsmen who learned their trade during Queen Victoria’s lifetime. . .
DIAL – Darkening over the years the dial, for the most part has a nice century old brass finish. Unfortunately, some areas, the hemispheres have darkened a good deal more than one would like to see. I certainly would advise against doing anything to the dial to improve its coloration. I have seen such dials made to shine like they were brand new, but you must not touch the dial (I know you wouldn’t) and leave it as it is while occasionally dusting it, as you would the case. . .
MOVEMENT – Understand that the British clockmakers belonged to a Guild which had strict requirements for creating a clock movement. One of the requirements involved the casting of the brass plates. Comparing English clock plates, which were perfectly cast, and American Colonial brass plates (the Americans had no clock Guild) where the brass was pitted and spotted and imperfect in it edges helps me personally identify American clock movements from the British versions. The two resembled each other in their construction since the American learned primarily from the English. Therefore, the quality of the brass was an important factor in differentiating the two. The German also never had a Guild and could make brass pieces and plates in any manner they chose. If you look closely at the brass plates and the various individual pieces of brass you will see pitting, spotting and irregularities not only in the brass but in the steel levers on the front plate. Those levers are not cut out precisely in the English manner and they have a linearity and angular aspect that the English avoided by shaping their steel pieces with gentle curves. The use of screws in round brass collets is not something you would find on an English made movement since the pillars would be place into the plates so that they would be far less noticeable. The little spring that you see on the front plate are NEVER seen on good English movements. Another obvious difference is that the silvered brass tubular chimes are undergoing oxidation and the silver oxide is darkening the tubes. In an Elliot clock the London made Harrington tubes were lacquered so that they remain polished and silver colored to this day. I think I will stop here about the movement, having said quite enough.
The clock remains fully functional. The dial and movement were made for this particular case and all three components are original and genuine.
BAWO & DOTTER: Bawo and Dotter, was a major New York importer was located at 30 Barclay Street, NYC. Bawo & Dotter was established in New York City in the 1860s to import porcelain, especially from Limoges. In the early 1870s they established The Elite Works in Limoges, France, to decorate porcelain made by other factories. Their production included table china, decorative pieces and trinket boxes. Bawo & Dotter also had large operations in Austria and Czechoslovakia, with completely different marks. It is important to understand they had agents scattered throughout Europe and many contacts. . . Charles T. Dotter terminated his partnership with Bawo on January 1, 1891. Francis Bawo then hired Charles Jacques in 1895 to run their new clock department because he had experience importing Hall clocks from England. The firm kept the original name of Bawo & Dotter. They added a line of European clocks in 1893. Jacques imported JJ Elliot English movements until 1898, then because of cost Jacques switched to importing German ‘Elite’ movements made by the firm of Mathias Bauerle in St. Georgen in the Black Forest region of Germany. Bauerle went into business in 1863 and later developed a large clock factory for wall, mantel and Hall clocks starting circa 1880. They supplied their 'Elite’ movements to Bawo & Dotter who provided the name Elite on some of the dials, most likely taken from their Elite Limoges China back in the 1860-1870s era. Bawo & Dotter Ltd. would suggest an English firm but I am certain this was their agent in England for exporting German and English items to New York City. Bauerle closed his operation sometime after 1930. He had used the name Peerless, Elite and Embee as logos on his clock movements. As far as tubular chimes I believe that during the time when Charles Jacques was ordering Elliott movements (1895-1898) from England they used Harris and Harrington tubular bells also from London, England. However, during the post 1900 era the tubes were made and supplied to Bawo & Dotter by Roland H. Mayland of New York City. The name Elite MAY also appear on the tubes. Bawo & Dotter closed its doors in 1932. . .
Mathias Bauerle was a clockmaker working out of his home in St. Georgen in the Black Forest region. He founded his company in 1863 and worked out of his home. His clock company developed into a large scale operation circa 1880, shortly afterwards he began to make Hall clocks in Germany. (Walter Durfee, furniture maker of Rhode Island, invented the Hall clock in Providence, R.I. just prior to 1880 and it immediately was popular and a success with the public) His business was continued under the same name until 1938 when it was terminated by World War II. However, Mathias never lived to see that since he died in 1916. His association with Bawo and Dotter is well known. Mathias may well have known their clock agents in Europe. . . COMPARABLES:
**N.B. - https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/76303444_herschede-mahogany-tall-case-grandfather-clock (This is the model of your clock case, pattern no.99, made by Herschede, with a movement imported from Winterhalder & Hofmeier in Germany. It sold in 2019 for $2000)
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/17189932_herschede-model-122-massive-9-tube-mahogany-hall-clock (Sold for $5000 in 2013)
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/73048423_durfee-5-tube-hall-clock-tiffany-and-co-ny-hall (Sold in 2019 for $700)
(Sold in 2016 for $8000)
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/28050647_herschede-mahogany-grandfather-clock-c-1915 (Sold in 2014 for $4500)
**N.B. - https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/herschede-hall-clock-co.-cincinnati-ohio-for-a.e-204443b8a6 (Sold in 2018 for $1500, the Herschede pattern no 99, your model)
The price of these oversize Hall clocks has been dropping over the past dozen years, and there is no end in sight especially with people buying small homes these days. I believe if you were to sell your Hall clock at auction, in today’s marketplace, it would bring in the range of $2000-$2500. At the height of the clock market in 2000 it would have sold for five figures, not four.
I have thrown a good deal of information at you, and I hope you can understand most of it. Herschede made this case and that company sold both to the public directly and to other retail clock and furniture firms as well. If Herschede had sold this clock directly to the public the dial would have had a crown on it between the hemispheres. Bawo and Dotter and Mathias Bauerle were a well-oiled team for selling expensive Hall clocks in New York City and as I have tried to explain that is the manner in which all three names come together in this case. I might add that Herschede started out only buying J.J. Elliot dials/movements for their own cases. Soon, due to cost savings, they switched to using the German firm of Winterhalder & Hofmeier, one of the top four or five German movement and dial makers. (Bauerle was not even in the conversation about top German firms).
It may all sound complicated, but all parties, just as they do today in business, did what they could to earn their market share of sales.
Hope this has help you in understanding the clock your grandparents purchased in the 1930’s.
My best,

Dear Andrew,
Thank you for contacting Mearto.com with your appraisal inquiry. So that I may best assist you, I will need a couple of close up photos.
(1) The most important photo is a close up of the small ornament placed between the two hemispheres in the upper dial, the photo always taken with the door open, so that I am not seeing the image through glass.
(2) A head on shot of the entire dial with the door open.
(3) An image of the entire clock case so that I can see the feet.
(4) Perhaps you can take a photo of the movement through the oval side-lights in the sides of the hood.
Also, please tell me:
1-Do you find any signature on the silvered tubular bells?
2-The height and width of the case?
3-The location of the Victoria trademark precisely.

That would all be of great help to me in trying to do this difficult appraisal for you.
My best,

Andrew levine Nov 12, 23:00 UTC

(1) The most important photo is a close up of the small ornament placed between the two hemispheres in the upper dial, the photo always taken with the door open, so that I am not seeing the image through glass.
(2) A head on shot of the entire dial with the door open.
(3) An image of the entire clock case so that I can see the feet.
(4) Perhaps you can take a photo of the movement through the oval side-lights in the sides of the hood.
Also, please tell me:
1-Do you find any signature on the silvered tubular bells?
2-The height and width of the case?
3-The location of the Victoria trademark precisely.

Andrew levine Nov 12, 23:28 UTC

Thank you for your response. I have added more pictures for you to review. There are no signatures on the tubular bells that I could see. I have attached picture of the base of the clock with measurements showing in inches and you can see the clocks feet clearly. The Victoria Trademark was precisely located on the bottom front of the plate display as I have circled in red with a red arrow. I put a small picture of the trademark and 510 number with the red arrow pointing where they exactly are. I will measure the case, but it is between 8' and 8' 6".

David Nov 13, 01:16 UTC

Hi Andrew,
Thank you for doing all that so quickly. I will do my best to get to your appraisal within the next 24 hours. I have a number of jobs to do. It will be a bit complicated but I have a clear picture in my mind of what I want to tell you about this clock. I was surprised that the Victoria trademark was on the movement, since I thought it was on the back of the dial, or is it on both?
Will get to this appraisal ASAP

Andrew levine Nov 13, 02:02 UTC

Thank you. I only saw the trademark on the back of the dial. I have asked quite a few clock repair companies and even some auction houses for these clocks, and nobody has scene the Queen Victoria Trademark logo before. That is why I am reaching out to you because this clock has been in our family for 80 years and it was passed on to me. I had a very nice man come in to help me identify any markings as he was able to remove the dial, but we could not find anything else. It looks like a JJ Elliott, but the Queen Victoria marking was not a marking that they used that we know of. If you need to take an extra day of research, that is fine as this clock could have significant meaning.

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