Seth Thomas Wall Clock / Punch or Time Clock
01 September 2021
Description

Measures 17 7/8 x 39 1/2 inches. Good Condition. Clock itself does not function. I believe this clock may have been used for the Railroad punch clock system.

Provenance

Unknown

Acquired from
Inherited
For sale
Yes
Answered within about 11 hours
By David
Sep 01, 14:00 UTC
Fair Market Value
$1,000 - $1,250 USD
Suggested Asking Price $1,000 USD
What does this mean?

Hello Gino,
Thank you for sending in this most interesting and challenging wall clock to mearto.com for an appraisal.
TITLE:
Stained solid oak, fifteen day timepiece with house current powered (originally had dry cell batteries), electronic signal bell serving as a reminder in various businesses, e.g., liveries, hotel operations, hospitals, railroads, etc. utilizing a mechanical 15 day timepiece movement (no. 50) provided by the Seth Thomas Clock Company of Thomaston, Ct. and the signal bell electromagnetic system made by the American Reminder Clock Company of Binghamton, New York (with a sales office in Chicago), clock made circa 1902-1907. {This spread of five years represented the short existence of the
American Reminder Clock Company.
DESCRIPTION:
CASE: 17 7/8” x 39 ½” solid golden oak rectangular wall clock. Although I thought at first this was a punch clock of sorts, I finally have come to the conclusion, that although it was based on the invention of Willard Bundy, inventor of the first practical time recording clock, it follows the same principals except that its function is to allow a bell to ring at a very specific date and time to remind whoever is manning the area where the clock resides, of an event scheduled for that specific time. There is a multistepped, flat and overhung moulded pediment at the top of the case with a horizontal cornice of dentil moulding just below. A horizontally aligned oak frieze beneath the pediment has a brass plaque which is embossed, “Property of NTL Electrical Reminder Co., Patented June 3, 1884 - #299,546, Patented April 7, 1885 – #315,313, Patents Applied For”. {This particular clock was purchased and used by a company called NTL or NTI, the company remains unidentified, but originally the plaque was precisely like this except the name of the original company said ‘American Electrical Reminder Co.’ It is quite possible that if you look on the reverse of the present plaque the name American might be on that side}
REGARDING PENDING PATENTS: There were further patents issued for this model of clock. One was issued on January 24, 1888 (issued to O. Skrivan and P. Dvorak of Bohemia, Germany) and the second issued March 17, 1896 (issued to John P. Luxmore of Chicago, Illinois). Both patents refer specifically to electrical “programing and controlling of clocks”. The Luxmore patent is clearly reflected in the design of your “reminder clock” model. The German patent clock has a fleeting resemblance to the patent intention. {Much of this information is taken from the text ‘An Empire in Time’ by G. Russel Oechsle and Helen Boyce, published by NAWCC, Inc. It is a text devoted to New York State clockmakers.
CASE DESCRIPTION CONTINUED: - Just below the frieze is the square glazed dial door with beading around the door circumference and a simple pull for access to the dial. Below the dial door is an oak panel with what is called the “pin pad”. There is a cast iron plate running horizontally across the case façade just under the dial and it carries the ‘days of the week’ with a pin pad just below each day except Sunday where the hole has a moveable plug. Below that, on the front of the case is another matte cast-iron plate in the form of a large “T’. Day quarter hours are listed on the left side of the T, while Night quarter hours are on the right side. The vertical part of the applied metal contains the twelve hours, listed vertically, starting with hour number 6, then numbered from 6-12 followed by 1-5. {This sure sounds like a shift of work running twelve hours, not uncommon at the turn of the 20th century. A nurse may start her shift and work from 6AM until 5PM.} To either side of the hours is the oak “pin plate” with a tiny holes under each quarter hour and to the left or right of the daytime and nighttime hours. The front door is flanked by carved chamfered corners with an egg-and-dart type design. A key found on the left side of the case, opens the entire rectilinear door including the square dial door with two brass hinges located on the right side.
The interior of the case originally contained two dry cell batteries, providing power to an electrical circuit. {Your example has been modernized and skips the batteries and uses household AC electrical current. The electrical signal from the original batteries is sent directly to metal wires behind the pin panel so that every quarter hour in a 24 hour period can be sent an electrical impulse. There should be metal pins found somewhere inside the case. These pins are inserted into one of the pin holes for the appropriate day of the week and a second metal pin inserted for the proper quarter hour period of a specific hour, using the two metal pins, that action completes an electrical circuit. The electricity runs up to a short wire strip located on a circular board behind the movement. At the chosen time, the electrical circuit is completed when the impulse reaches a brass paddle shaped arm, attached to gearing in the back of the movement and connected with the time train where the impulse is wired into a bell seen on the inside of the front door of the case, and this causes the ‘reminder bell’ to sound at the chosen quarter hour where the two pins had been inserted. The brass paddle shaped contact arm makes one full revolution in 24 hours. Some examples have a cardboard set of directions for operating the clock pasted on the inside of the door (Yours appears to be missing. That cardboard card with directions has the proper name of the company, i.e. American Reminder Clock Company of Binghamton, New York.
DIAL: A round white painted zinc dial plate has black enameled Arabic hours, closed bar minute track to the outside, black painted spade hands, a lever for making the movement run faster or slower under the twelve, two winding apertures for the two coiled spring of 15 hour duration, each spring powered for 7-8 days, and the clock is signed ‘Seth Thomas” with its ST logo in a box within a circle just below the dial center. A round white enameled piece of metal has been screwed over an opening in the upper dial. Perhaps this indicates that the dial used was originally intended for another type of Seth Thomas clock, not this alarm bell reminder clock. (I am uncertain about this, but another example I saw did not have that added piece of metal, as yours does.)
MOVEMENT: Not shown but is thought to have been the Seth Thomas #50 fenestrated brass movement which appeared in the Seth Thomas 1907 catalog and was simply described as “15 day, fine, pendulum, time and spring. Discontinued in 1907.” It is my understanding that the movement is often signed by both the Seth Thomas Clock Company and the Baird Clock Company of Plattsburgh, New York. The Baird movements were spring driven, time only, and were supplied primarily, if not totally by the Seth Thomas Clock Company of Thomaston, Ct.
CONDITION:
Case – In very fine, excellent condition with an old patina.
Dial – In very good condition with the exception caused by adding the screwed down circular metal plate and the flaking of paint immediately adjacent to that site.
Movement – The clock movement was not seen, and the client is unsure about whether it is functional or not. The clock itself is purely mechanical and likely needs cleaning and perhaps an overhaul. The alarm device has also not been used in quite a long time. Therefore, we do not know at this point, for certain, about the functionality of the device.
COMMENTARY:My own feeling about where this clock might have been used best over a century ago is in a nurse’s station in a hospital for giving out medications. But no one truly knows the answer to that question. I am uncertain where it would fit into a piece of equipment used on a railroad, but it is possible and I did see an example today of one marked for a specific railway. Here is that clock - https://clockdoc.org/default.aspx?aid=11044
HISTORY:
American Reminder Clock Company, located at 93 State Street, Binghamton, New York This is a Binghamton made clock, patented early on in 1884 and 1886. (Patents applied for and then received. Patented in Jan. 24, 1888 and March 17, 1895. {Others are marked Chicago.} The American Reminder Clock Company was incorporated in Binghamton New York on November 12, 1902 with a capitalization of $20,000 and the investors were Harlow Bundy (the brother of Willard Bundy, the inventor of the first practical time recording clock), John Deubur and Alvin McCrary. At the same time Harlow Bundy retained the position of Secretary and General Manager of the International Time Recorder Company which was the successor to the Bundy Manufacturing Company of Binghamton New York. Therefore, the short-lived firm of the American Reminder Clock Company was tied directly into both the Bundy Recorder Manufacturing firm and the International Time Recording Company (The International Time Recorder Company relocated to Endicott, New York about 12 miles west of Binghamton New York).
Several identical clocks have been found with the same label but the Binghamton New York was replaced with Chicago, Illinois. The clock also closely resembles a clock made by Andrew Van Strait of nearby Sidney, New York, and is a clock patented in the same year as the subject clock. The difference between the two firms is that the Van Strait examples have advertising completely around the larger sides of the case front, which has the dial and full pin plate in the middle.
COMPARABLES:
Based on the very few clocks extant it appears that this American Reminder Clock Company did not last very long in business, in fact only about five years. This is quite a rare clock to find.
Of course, there are so few around that I cannot even give you specific comparables to look at. Here are those comparables using other makers rare or very fine examples. I thought these worthy of comparing from a price point of view:
~https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/96589569_1905-unique-simplex-time-clock (Rare Simplex no. 2 made in 1905 sold for $1100 in 2021)
~https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/6183856_343-rochester-time-recorder-clock (Rochester Time recorder sold in 2009 for $1100)
~https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/74100777_early-20th-c-international-dial-time-recorder-clock (International time Recorder sold for $1500 in 2019)
~https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/77049179_antique-dmandir-hanging-wall-clock-with-2-slaves (International Time Recorder master clock with two slave clocks sold in 2019 for $2500)
~https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/97469584_bundy-mfg-co-time-recorder-clock (Bundy example sold in 2019 for $1000)
~https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/96589586_seth-thomas-burglar-alarm-clock (Seth Thomas Burglar alarm clock sold for $400 in 2021)
PRICING:
Despite the rarity of this model clock, it is not a type of time recorder clock a company could commonly use, and I believe that is the reason the company did not survive more than five years. Therefore, it truly is a footnote to horological history. Fortunately, I like footnotes, and appreciate its purpose and its handsome appearance. I believe the fair market value (even though it needs repair), especially for collectors of Seth Thomas Clocks, Time and alarm recording systems, etc., would be in a range today of $1000-$1250 with a retail value 2-3 times that amount.
I enjoyed doing this appraisal for you, and I have to confess that I have learned much today about a clock I had never seen before. Hopefully, I did the proper research for this very rare wall ‘Reminder’ clock. I will not soon forget it.
Thank you for choosing mearto.com for this appraisal.
My best and thank you for being helpful.
David

Gino acker Sep 01, 17:59 UTC

It is NTL. I can upload the internal part of the clock later today.

Thanks,
Gino

David Sep 01, 18:13 UTC

Thank you Gino.
I look forward to seeing the inside of the case.
Look carefully for any names or initials of railroad lines marked on the inside of the case.
The movement is located in a wooden box at the top of the case, and I am hoping you can get to show me some part of that, although that may be difficult for you to do.
It should house a Seth Thomas # 50 brass movement, a movement which was discontinued in 1907.
Look forward to your photos and any further info you may find.
My best,
David

David Sep 02, 00:57 UTC

Hi Gino,
Gino,
Thank you for those photos, they are of great help.
I assume that whoever sold you the clock converted the power to house current instead of using the dry cell batteries. I am going to describe how the original clock was powered and then mention that yours was converted to house current. It doesn't affect the value at all.
I did spend all morning and until five this afternoon on your clock research and appraisal. I do not ever remember doing that before today. The appraisal is just about fully written, but I want to read it over tomorrow morning and make some adjustments (minor) on what your photos showed me tonight.
In addition, I have another grandfather clock to appraise and can do that quickly tonight.
So, thank you, and you will get the appraisal before noon tomorrow.
Hope that is acceptable to you.
Many thanks,
David

Gino acker Sep 02, 03:03 UTC

Hi David, How can I be sure if the clock is functioning or not? I plugged it in, But I do not hear anything. Gears moving etc. I am missing a brass pin. Only one that is the top most left corner under the Day.

David Sep 02, 03:23 UTC

Gino,
You would need a clock repair person to advise you about the repair aspects, and I have never done clock repairs. Truthfully, I really did not take off a significant deduction for the repair work. BECAUSE - A collector who is interested in buying this very rare clock actually does not care if it works or not. If it something that is part of what they collect they just will extend to buy such an item, working or not.
David

David Sep 02, 12:59 UTC

Gino,
I have restated the section under "Condition: Movement" to reflect the fact that you are uncertain about the functionality of the clock movement and about the alarm bell section(which appears to be quite complete). My best guess is that this clock mechanism needs a cleaning and may just start up functioning. Please read that section and see if you would agree with what has been changed.
my best,
David

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